Kirk Cameron is joined by renowned mathematician John Lennox and producer Nate Wilson for fascinating conversations surrounding the presence and power of God in mathematics; science; narrative and nature.
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Takeaways with Kirk Cameron | God In Mathematics, Science, Narrative and Nature | May 10, 2022
- (beeping sounds)
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- - Mathematics, science, story.
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- Don't turn the channel,
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- we're not going back to class today,
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- but we do have some fascinating guests here
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- to share with us about
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- how through each of these different fields of study,
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- we see the unmistakable presence and power of God.
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- Let's talk about it right now on Takeaways.
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- (upbeat music)
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- - Science can answer many questions,
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- but it cannot answer the questions of meaning.
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- (upbeat music continues)
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- - The perspective we need to keep
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- is that we are secondary characters
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- in other people's stories,
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- and we're all secondary characters in the story.
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- None of us are the hero of the story.
- 00:00:42.922 --> 00:00:51.898
- - Dr. John Lennox is emeritus professor of mathematics
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- at Oxford University,
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- and emeritus fellow in mathematics
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- and philosophy of science at Green Templeton College.
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- He's an internationally renowned speaker
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- on the interface of science, philosophy and religion.
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- Well known for public debates with public intellectuals,
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- such as the late Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins,
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- and Peter Singer.
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- John, thank you so much for joining us.
- 00:01:17.924 --> 00:01:20.326
- - It's my pleasure to be with you today.
- 00:01:20.326 --> 00:01:23.029
- - Well, I love your accent.
- 00:01:23.630 --> 00:01:25.632
- I can't wait to go and visit Ireland and Scotland
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- and really get back to my Cameron roots.
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- One of the things that was so important to me
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- as a brand new believer
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- was to be able to reconcile
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- seemingly opposing ideas or disciplines
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- like math and science,
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- which I've always loved in school,
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- and then this idea of faith,
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- and believing in things like a virgin giving birth
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- and the resurrection of a man from the dead,
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- and listening and learning from people like you
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- has been so helpful to me.
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- So here you are at Oxford
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- and you are debating notable atheists.
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- You're teaching on math and on science,
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- and yet you are a man of faith
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- debating people like Christopher Hitchens,
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- who's wonderful to listen to,
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- and Richard Dawkins,
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- who's challenging to so many of us.
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- Have you always had a love for math and science,
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- or is that something that developed later in your life?
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- - No, it developed very early on.
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- I was quite good at arithmetic in school,
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- and that then led to an interest in mathematics.
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- It also led to an interest in languages.
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- I love languages and I've kept that going,
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- but right early on,
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- my parents who were wonderful in encouraging me
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- to think about the big questions.
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- So I wanted to know where mathematics fitted in science
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- and where science fitted into the big picture.
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- And I was a teenager at the time
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- when I discovered that it was quite clear
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- that science didn't give us a full picture,
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- can't explain everything.
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- And I started voraciously reading and thinking and studying,
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- and particularly C.S. Lewis,
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- who I lived to here in 1962 in his last lectures
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- was a tremendous help to me
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- in showing how logical Christianity was,
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- just as logical as the mathematics that I loved.
- 00:03:20.847 --> 00:03:24.884
- - For some people,
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- studying mathematics is worse than eating broccoli,
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- and yet you say that you love to study math.
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- What is it about mathematics that's interesting?
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- - Well, I love broccoli too.
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- (both laugh)
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- I think the fascination is
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- you here have a very highly compressed language.
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- And we discovered that in some mysterious almost way
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- that it tells us something about the universe.
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- We can reduce some of the things
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- going on out there in the universe to mathematics,
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- and think of Isaac Newton and his gravitational equation
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- or Kepler's laws
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- or the Clarke Maxwell's laws of electromagnetism.
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- And that always fascinated me that in a few symbols,
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- you could capture something which when you unfolded it
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- gave you, for instance, if you take Newton's equation,
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- gravitation equation,
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- you can very rapidly see that the planets move in ellipses
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- around the sun as focus,
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- and that kind of thing absolutely riveted me.
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- Of course, it all depends, I think at school time
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- of having a really inspirational teacher,
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- which I was very fortunate to have.
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- So I love mathematics,
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- but you see, the fascinating thing is
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- Einstein once said,
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- the only incomprehensible thing about the universe
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- is that it's comprehensible.
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- And he put his finger in something very important,
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- and that's one of the reasons I'm a Christian
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- because mathematics works.
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- And atheism gives me no explanation
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- of why mathematics works,
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- but the great scientists,
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- Newton, I've named Kepler, Galileo, Clarke Maxwell, Faraday,
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- all of them were believers in God.
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- And I think the best way to sum that up
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- is in the words of C.S. Lewis.
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- He once said, "Men became scientific
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- because they expected law in nature,
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- and they expected law in nature
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- because they believed in the law giver."
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- So there's an intimate connection
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- with the biblical worldview and the rise of modern science.
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- I often say to people, Kurt
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- that I'm not remotely ashamed of being a scientist
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- and a believer in God,
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- because arguably, Christianity gave me my subject.
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- - I love that.
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- And you mentioned earlier that your parents encouraged you
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- to read on a wide variety of subjects
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- and from a variety of authors,
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- not just a Christian worldview,
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- but others as well.
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- Do you recommend that for parents today?
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- Because there's certainly things that they could be reading
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- that would undermine a biblical worldview.
- 00:06:08.714 --> 00:06:11.150
- - We need as parents,
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- particularly Christian parents to prepare our children
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- for going out into college and university.
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- And I know the statistics in some countries are horrifying,
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- that over 70% of kids who profess Christianity at school,
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- within two or three years of university, they've lost it.
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- And I think one of the main reasons for that
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- is that the parents are not spending time
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- answering their questions,
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- or if they can't answer them,
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- which is often the case,
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- feeding them with really good information,
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- which is available today
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- in a measure that wasn't available when I was younger,
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- and helping them to think through these worldview issues.
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- You cannot live in a pluralistic complex multicultural world
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- and stand as a Christian without facing questions,
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- and you need to be ready to answer them
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- and defend the Christian gospel,
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- and that's what I try to spend most of my life doing.
- 00:07:09.475 --> 00:07:13.045
- - You mentioned that you had a chance
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- to actually sit in some of the classrooms
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- or the lectures, hear lectures from C.S. Lewis.
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- What a privilege that must have been.
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- How did your sitting at his feet
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- influence the career path that you've taken?
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- - Well, I went to the last of his lectures
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- in '62 in Cambridge,
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- not knowing that he was seriously ill
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- and he died the following year, as you will recall,
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- but he'd begun to influence me long before
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- I reached Cambridge in '62,
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- because my father gave me a copy of "Mere Christianity."
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- And it was like standing under a fire hose
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- of logical thinking,
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- and it just opened my mind that I devoured every word.
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- And what was most important for me was,
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- I have no idea what it's like to be an adult
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- and not a believer in God.
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- And I needed someone to guide me into what that was like.
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- And so C.S. Lewis who was an atheist until middle life,
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- until his 30s, certainly,
- 00:08:21.647 --> 00:08:23.816
- provided that guide
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- and helped me to understand the nuts and bolts of atheism.
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- And I didn't know that one day
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- I would confront the leading atheists of the day
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- like Richard Dawkins and so on.
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- And all of that was enormously helpful,
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- because what got really into my heart at an early stage
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- was that Christianity was true.
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- I'd seen it lived,
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- really lived in the lives of my parents,
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- and they loved me enough not to force it down my throat
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- and they encouraged me to think
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- so that I was persuaded inwardly
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- of the truth of Christianity.
- 00:08:59.118 --> 00:09:00.720
- So when I left Ireland with all its religion
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- and its factions and everything else and bigotry,
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- and got to Cambridge,
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- I didn't lose my faith in God
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- as many of my contemporaries did
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- because they had never imbibed it,
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- they'd never believed it for themselves
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- in an individual way.
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- So parents were very important,
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- Lewis was important, and other people were important
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- in helping me to think about scripture
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- as hard as I do about my maths.
- 00:09:27.613 --> 00:09:30.282
- - As a mathematician, John, when you look at the universe,
- 00:09:30.282 --> 00:09:34.587
- what are some of the evidences that point you to believe
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- that it was created by God?
- 00:09:41.093 --> 00:09:43.896
- - Well, the very first thing,
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- it might surprise some people,
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- it's the very fact that we can do science with mathematics.
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- In other words,
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- we discovered that this is what I call
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- a word-based universe.
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- Is describable in a language.
- 00:09:56.942 --> 00:10:00.112
- And that resonates wonderfully with two things,
- 00:10:00.112 --> 00:10:03.416
- two central statements in the biblical text.
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- Firstly, the first words of the gospel of John,
- 00:10:09.588 --> 00:10:12.725
- "In the beginning was the word,
- 00:10:12.725 --> 00:10:14.727
- the word was God."
- 00:10:14.727 --> 00:10:16.028
- And then a bit later on,
- 00:10:16.028 --> 00:10:17.296
- "All things came to be through the word."
- 00:10:17.296 --> 00:10:20.166
- And there is John explaining how the universe came to exist,
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- it is word-based.
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- It was spoken by God, who is the word.
- 00:10:26.105 --> 00:10:29.041
- And in the simpler language of Genesis,
- 00:10:29.041 --> 00:10:31.444
- but no less profound,
- 00:10:31.444 --> 00:10:33.145
- you have the constant repetition,
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- and God said, and God said.
- 00:10:34.880 --> 00:10:37.283
- So one of the things that points me towards God
- 00:10:37.283 --> 00:10:40.786
- is the semiotic nature of mathematics.
- 00:10:40.786 --> 00:10:43.989
- It describes the universe in language.
- 00:10:43.989 --> 00:10:47.860
- And another thing that fits beautifully in with that
- 00:10:47.860 --> 00:10:51.130
- was discovered relatively recently,
- 00:10:51.130 --> 00:10:53.999
- and that is the fact that the human genome
- 00:10:53.999 --> 00:10:57.670
- is the longest word,
- 00:10:57.670 --> 00:10:59.138
- contains the longest word we've ever discovered.
- 00:10:59.138 --> 00:11:01.207
- 3.4 billion chemical letters all arranged in a row.
- 00:11:01.207 --> 00:11:05.911
- And when Francis Collins
- 00:11:05.911 --> 00:11:07.513
- stood beside the president of the United States
- 00:11:07.513 --> 00:11:10.015
- and announced that they decoded it,
- 00:11:10.015 --> 00:11:12.218
- they said, this is the language of God.
- 00:11:12.218 --> 00:11:16.522
- And there in our genetics,
- 00:11:16.522 --> 00:11:18.257
- and every one of the 10 trillion cells in our bodies
- 00:11:18.257 --> 00:11:21.861
- is a lengthy word.
- 00:11:21.861 --> 00:11:23.763
- And that to my mind speaks directly of an intelligent input
- 00:11:23.763 --> 00:11:29.034
- from a speaking God.
- 00:11:29.502 --> 00:11:31.370
- It's a word-based universe.
- 00:11:31.370 --> 00:11:33.205
- So that's where I would start.
- 00:11:33.205 --> 00:11:35.441
- And then I would pick up probably from physics.
- 00:11:35.441 --> 00:11:39.178
- The fact that's recognized by virtually all physicists
- 00:11:39.178 --> 00:11:43.749
- and cosmologists that this universe is incredibly fine tuned
- 00:11:43.749 --> 00:11:48.988
- to have carbon-based life on it.
- 00:11:49.622 --> 00:11:51.524
- The basic constants of nature are so precise,
- 00:11:51.524 --> 00:11:55.895
- have to be so precise,
- 00:11:55.895 --> 00:11:57.997
- otherwise the universe wouldn't exist.
- 00:11:57.997 --> 00:12:00.866
- And again, that demands explanation.
- 00:12:00.866 --> 00:12:03.669
- Every scientist sees that it demands an explanation,
- 00:12:03.669 --> 00:12:07.339
- but people like the late Stephen Hawking,
- 00:12:07.339 --> 00:12:09.275
- who was a genius
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- and was in Cambridge around the same time as I was there,
- 00:12:10.776 --> 00:12:13.979
- they reject, of course, the God explanation,
- 00:12:13.979 --> 00:12:17.183
- but they come to believe in a universe
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- that created itself from nothing,
- 00:12:19.718 --> 00:12:21.754
- which to my mind is logically absurd
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- apart from anything else.
- 00:12:23.923 --> 00:12:25.524
- - John, I'm so glad you're not recommending
- 00:12:26.392 --> 00:12:29.128
- that people stay away from the tough questions,
- 00:12:29.128 --> 00:12:31.096
- but you are inviting them into those difficult questions
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- and to explore those things,
- 00:12:34.400 --> 00:12:36.101
- and that's what I want for my children.
- 00:12:36.101 --> 00:12:38.904
- And I love that you see studying math almost as a way,
- 00:12:38.904 --> 00:12:43.876
- a form of worshiping God.
- 00:12:43.876 --> 00:12:46.846
- Explain what you mean by that.
- 00:12:46.846 --> 00:12:49.048
- We think of singing as worship or reading the scriptures,
- 00:12:49.048 --> 00:12:52.084
- but studying mathematics?
- 00:12:52.084 --> 00:12:54.520
- In what way does that send us into worship?
- 00:12:54.520 --> 00:12:57.423
- - Well, not quite in the same way.
- 00:12:57.423 --> 00:12:59.525
- I think if we're singing really good music,
- 00:12:59.525 --> 00:13:02.294
- you're actually verbalizing things about God,
- 00:13:02.294 --> 00:13:06.198
- and that is very important
- 00:13:06.198 --> 00:13:07.499
- because as I understand worship
- 00:13:07.499 --> 00:13:09.802
- and its narrow sense, at least,
- 00:13:09.802 --> 00:13:11.770
- it is a response to God speaking,
- 00:13:11.770 --> 00:13:14.240
- and it's our articulating what we think about God
- 00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:17.910
- and believe about Him.
- 00:13:17.910 --> 00:13:20.112
- Just to give you a crude analogy.
- 00:13:20.112 --> 00:13:23.215
- If you want to get people to laugh,
- 00:13:23.215 --> 00:13:25.584
- you have to tell them a joke,
- 00:13:25.584 --> 00:13:26.852
- you don't discuss the mechanics of laughter.
- 00:13:26.852 --> 00:13:29.488
- And if you want to get people to worship,
- 00:13:29.488 --> 00:13:31.056
- you tell 'em about God,
- 00:13:31.056 --> 00:13:32.591
- you don't discuss emotion or anything like that.
- 00:13:32.591 --> 00:13:36.862
- And therefore it seems to me,
- 00:13:36.862 --> 00:13:38.530
- the primary source of worship
- 00:13:38.530 --> 00:13:41.700
- is God speaking to us through His word.
- 00:13:41.700 --> 00:13:44.470
- But mathematics and the study of nature in general,
- 00:13:44.470 --> 00:13:48.107
- the heavens declare the glory of God,
- 00:13:48.107 --> 00:13:50.442
- not only visually, but mathematically.
- 00:13:50.442 --> 00:13:53.078
- And there's an absolute beauty
- 00:13:53.078 --> 00:13:55.681
- in some of the mathematics that we study,
- 00:13:55.681 --> 00:13:58.984
- and it certainly fits perfectly in with the idea that
- 00:13:58.984 --> 00:14:03.722
- whatever we do,
- 00:14:03.722 --> 00:14:04.990
- whether it's mathematics or expounding scripture,
- 00:14:04.990 --> 00:14:07.726
- both of which I like doing,
- 00:14:07.726 --> 00:14:09.528
- we do all to the glory of God,
- 00:14:09.528 --> 00:14:12.364
- it's not restricted
- 00:14:12.364 --> 00:14:13.565
- to what happens inside a church building.
- 00:14:13.565 --> 00:14:15.834
- - John, your insights are fascinating.
- 00:14:15.834 --> 00:14:17.836
- I love our conversation.
- 00:14:17.836 --> 00:14:19.505
- And when we come back,
- 00:14:19.505 --> 00:14:20.706
- we're gonna discuss God and science.
- 00:14:20.706 --> 00:14:23.342
- Are the two compatible or at odds with one another?
- 00:14:23.342 --> 00:14:26.011
- Let's talk more about that after the break.
- 00:14:26.011 --> 00:14:28.380
- (upbeat music)
- 00:14:28.380 --> 00:14:32.997
- (upbeat music)
- 00:14:32.997 --> 00:14:40.160
- We're back with John Lennox.
- 00:14:40.760 --> 00:14:42.963
- After exploring how God can be found in mathematics,
- 00:14:42.963 --> 00:14:46.032
- now we're gonna talk about God and science.
- 00:14:46.032 --> 00:14:49.336
- John, I heard that you wrote a little book
- 00:14:50.236 --> 00:14:53.373
- and it's being read around the world called,
- 00:14:53.373 --> 00:14:55.809
- "Can Science Explain Everything?
- 00:14:55.809 --> 00:14:58.645
- Why is everyone talking about this book so much?
- 00:14:58.645 --> 00:15:01.381
- - It addresses a feeling that's very widespread,
- 00:15:01.381 --> 00:15:05.885
- that science has been so successful.
- 00:15:05.885 --> 00:15:08.655
- Look at the technology it has produced.
- 00:15:08.655 --> 00:15:11.124
- Surely in the end,
- 00:15:11.124 --> 00:15:12.325
- it will answer everything
- 00:15:12.325 --> 00:15:14.294
- and push religion right out to the side,
- 00:15:14.294 --> 00:15:17.430
- and especially any ideas of God.
- 00:15:17.430 --> 00:15:20.100
- And I want to combat that.
- 00:15:20.100 --> 00:15:22.569
- And I want to say that science is powerful, I love it,
- 00:15:22.569 --> 00:15:26.239
- but it's limited.
- 00:15:26.239 --> 00:15:28.508
- And it's easy to see that it's limited.
- 00:15:28.508 --> 00:15:32.178
- There's a very brilliant Nobel prize winner
- 00:15:32.178 --> 00:15:34.581
- called Sir Peter Medawar.
- 00:15:34.581 --> 00:15:37.017
- And he once said,
- 00:15:37.017 --> 00:15:38.218
- it's so easy to see that science is limited
- 00:15:38.218 --> 00:15:41.187
- because it cannot even answer the questions of a child.
- 00:15:41.187 --> 00:15:45.458
- Where do I come from?
- 00:15:45.458 --> 00:15:46.626
- Where am I going?
- 00:15:46.626 --> 00:15:47.927
- And what is the meaning of life?
- 00:15:47.927 --> 00:15:50.430
- And he hit on something very important there.
- 00:15:50.430 --> 00:15:53.266
- The late Lord Sacks,
- 00:15:53.266 --> 00:15:55.135
- who was the chief rabbi
- 00:15:55.135 --> 00:15:56.803
- in the United Kingdom and Commonwealth wrote a book once.
- 00:15:56.803 --> 00:16:00.940
- He was a brilliant philosopher.
- 00:16:00.940 --> 00:16:02.675
- And he said something roughly like this,
- 00:16:02.675 --> 00:16:04.811
- "Science takes things apart to see how they work.
- 00:16:04.811 --> 00:16:09.215
- Religion puts them together to see what they mean."
- 00:16:09.215 --> 00:16:13.219
- And the point is that science can answer many questions,
- 00:16:13.219 --> 00:16:17.323
- but it cannot answer the questions of meaning.
- 00:16:17.323 --> 00:16:21.294
- We often put it this way,
- 00:16:21.294 --> 00:16:22.996
- that science answers mainly the how questions
- 00:16:22.996 --> 00:16:26.900
- and the why questions of function.
- 00:16:26.900 --> 00:16:29.002
- Why is that bit there?
- 00:16:29.002 --> 00:16:30.937
- But it cannot deal with the why questions of purpose.
- 00:16:30.937 --> 00:16:36.209
- And I often illustrate this
- 00:16:36.810 --> 00:16:39.479
- by telling a story about a fictitious aunt Matilda,
- 00:16:39.479 --> 00:16:43.149
- who's baked a beautiful cake and there it is in front of us.
- 00:16:43.149 --> 00:16:46.986
- And she presents it to an assembly
- 00:16:46.986 --> 00:16:51.024
- of all the Nobel prize winners
- 00:16:51.024 --> 00:16:53.960
- and asks them to analyze the cake.
- 00:16:53.960 --> 00:16:56.496
- So you get a brilliant chemical analysis,
- 00:16:56.496 --> 00:16:59.666
- you get an analysis in terms of biology and physics,
- 00:16:59.666 --> 00:17:03.970
- in terms of quirks and electrons and everything else.
- 00:17:03.970 --> 00:17:06.906
- And they give you a huge and perfect analysis.
- 00:17:06.906 --> 00:17:12.245
- And when they've finished, she says,
- 00:17:13.046 --> 00:17:13.847
- now, just before you go,
- 00:17:13.847 --> 00:17:15.782
- please tell me why the cake was made.
- 00:17:15.782 --> 00:17:18.551
- And she begins to (indistinct)
- 00:17:18.551 --> 00:17:20.453
- And the physicist, well, he could tell what it's made off,
- 00:17:20.453 --> 00:17:23.723
- but he can't tell why she made the cake,
- 00:17:23.723 --> 00:17:26.426
- and nor can the chemist, and nor can anybody else,
- 00:17:26.426 --> 00:17:28.828
- not even the mathematicians who don't get Nobel prizes.
- 00:17:28.828 --> 00:17:32.532
- None of them can tell her why,
- 00:17:32.532 --> 00:17:36.002
- only she can if she reveals it to them.
- 00:17:36.002 --> 00:17:40.006
- Now, this is a very simple analogy,
- 00:17:40.006 --> 00:17:42.108
- but it's hugely important
- 00:17:42.108 --> 00:17:44.210
- because it's the same with the universe.
- 00:17:44.210 --> 00:17:46.946
- We can examine what it's made of
- 00:17:46.946 --> 00:17:48.848
- and get brilliant scientific theories,
- 00:17:48.848 --> 00:17:51.551
- but to understand why it was made and why we were made,
- 00:17:51.551 --> 00:17:55.889
- God who created it will have to reveal it to us.
- 00:17:56.823 --> 00:17:59.659
- Now here's the important thing.
- 00:17:59.659 --> 00:18:02.195
- When aunt Matilda reveals it to us,
- 00:18:02.195 --> 00:18:05.165
- we don't shut our reason off.
- 00:18:05.165 --> 00:18:07.934
- We use our reason to understand her revelation.
- 00:18:08.902 --> 00:18:13.039
- And just as we use our reason to understand science,
- 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:16.209
- how it works,
- 00:18:16.209 --> 00:18:17.644
- we use her reason to understand her explanation
- 00:18:17.644 --> 00:18:20.713
- of why she made it,
- 00:18:20.713 --> 00:18:22.015
- and it's exactly the same
- 00:18:22.015 --> 00:18:23.883
- because so many people think that faith is a religious word,
- 00:18:23.883 --> 00:18:28.788
- it means believing where there's no evidence,
- 00:18:28.788 --> 00:18:31.191
- that's nonsense.
- 00:18:31.191 --> 00:18:32.158
- Faith is an ordinary word.
- 00:18:32.158 --> 00:18:33.493
- It means trust
- 00:18:33.493 --> 00:18:34.994
- and is as important in science as it is in any other field.
- 00:18:34.994 --> 00:18:39.666
- And that's why I say that we need to distinguish
- 00:18:39.666 --> 00:18:44.003
- between these two explanations.
- 00:18:44.003 --> 00:18:47.707
- - Why are people, do you think,
- 00:18:47.707 --> 00:18:49.842
- so committed in the academic fields to not believing in God?
- 00:18:49.842 --> 00:18:55.181
- And they've done a fantastic job of making us think
- 00:18:56.216 --> 00:18:59.519
- that we are the ones who believe fantastical things,
- 00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:02.222
- but really, it's the ones who deny God,
- 00:19:02.222 --> 00:19:05.058
- who appear to me to be living in this fantasy world
- 00:19:05.058 --> 00:19:08.561
- that out of nothing, everything comes.
- 00:19:08.561 --> 00:19:11.397
- - Sometimes when I'm talking to scientists, I'll say,
- 00:19:11.397 --> 00:19:14.334
- what do you do science with?
- 00:19:14.334 --> 00:19:16.469
- And they will talk about some expensive equipment.
- 00:19:16.469 --> 00:19:19.472
- And I point to my head and I say this.
- 00:19:19.472 --> 00:19:22.742
- Oh, they said,
- 00:19:22.742 --> 00:19:23.576
- you mean your,
- 00:19:23.576 --> 00:19:24.777
- and they're about to say mind
- 00:19:24.777 --> 00:19:26.346
- when they know that it's not politically correct
- 00:19:26.346 --> 00:19:28.481
- to believe in the mind,
- 00:19:28.481 --> 00:19:30.049
- so they say your brain, you do science with your brain.
- 00:19:30.049 --> 00:19:31.884
- I say, okay, I believe the brain and the mind are separate,
- 00:19:31.884 --> 00:19:35.521
- but that's another discussion.
- 00:19:35.521 --> 00:19:37.357
- You do science with your brain.
- 00:19:37.357 --> 00:19:39.292
- Give me the short history of the brain.
- 00:19:39.292 --> 00:19:41.227
- And they come up with something like this.
- 00:19:41.227 --> 00:19:42.762
- Well, the brain is the end product
- 00:19:42.762 --> 00:19:44.697
- of a mindless, unguided process.
- 00:19:44.697 --> 00:19:47.133
- And I look at them and smile, and I say, and you trust it?
- 00:19:47.133 --> 00:19:50.637
- I said, tell me honestly,
- 00:19:50.637 --> 00:19:52.805
- if you knew that the computer that you use every day
- 00:19:52.805 --> 00:19:57.543
- for doing your science
- 00:19:57.543 --> 00:19:59.012
- was the end product of a mindless, unguided process,
- 00:19:59.012 --> 00:20:02.415
- would you trust it?
- 00:20:02.415 --> 00:20:03.616
- Now here's the interesting thing.
- 00:20:03.616 --> 00:20:05.318
- I have always got the answer, no.
- 00:20:05.318 --> 00:20:09.589
- And I say to them,
- 00:20:10.023 --> 00:20:11.324
- you have a problem, don't you?
- 00:20:11.324 --> 00:20:13.660
- Because you are giving me an explanation of your brain mind
- 00:20:13.660 --> 00:20:18.197
- that you wouldn't accept in any other area.
- 00:20:19.032 --> 00:20:22.568
- Atheism gives you no ground
- 00:20:23.169 --> 00:20:25.872
- for trusting the rationality you need to do science.
- 00:20:25.872 --> 00:20:30.209
- So what atheism does is not only shoot you in the foot,
- 00:20:30.209 --> 00:20:33.780
- and that's painful,
- 00:20:33.780 --> 00:20:35.014
- it shoots you in the head and that's fatal.
- 00:20:35.014 --> 00:20:37.083
- - You're speaking in ways that remind me of C.S. Lewis
- 00:20:37.083 --> 00:20:40.186
- and making similar types of arguments,
- 00:20:40.186 --> 00:20:42.288
- and it's so refreshing to hear this.
- 00:20:42.288 --> 00:20:45.458
- Do you address in your book,
- 00:20:45.458 --> 00:20:47.060
- the objection that somebody might make?
- 00:20:47.060 --> 00:20:48.995
- Well, your Matilda argument sounds great
- 00:20:48.995 --> 00:20:51.097
- and your teapot argument sounds great,
- 00:20:51.097 --> 00:20:53.032
- because she wanted to make the cake.
- 00:20:53.032 --> 00:20:55.001
- There is a purpose.
- 00:20:55.001 --> 00:20:55.935
- Someone wanted a cup of tea,
- 00:20:55.935 --> 00:20:57.403
- but you cannot assume
- 00:20:57.403 --> 00:21:00.506
- that the universe was made for a reason.
- 00:21:00.506 --> 00:21:03.776
- We can pull it apart.
- 00:21:03.776 --> 00:21:04.911
- We can describe how it works,
- 00:21:04.911 --> 00:21:06.546
- but doesn't it just take faith to believe
- 00:21:06.546 --> 00:21:09.782
- that there's actually a purpose and a meaning behind it all?
- 00:21:09.782 --> 00:21:12.819
- What say there is no purpose or meaning?
- 00:21:12.819 --> 00:21:15.588
- - Well, of course it does.
- 00:21:16.155 --> 00:21:17.623
- You can assume that there's no purpose or meaning,
- 00:21:17.623 --> 00:21:20.159
- but then that's the stop.
- 00:21:20.159 --> 00:21:21.761
- And it's very interesting for a scientist to take that view
- 00:21:22.962 --> 00:21:25.898
- because all the time they spend, what's that for?
- 00:21:25.898 --> 00:21:28.434
- What's the point of that?
- 00:21:28.434 --> 00:21:29.402
- What's the purpose of this?
- 00:21:29.402 --> 00:21:31.037
- And my friend, Paul Davis,
- 00:21:31.037 --> 00:21:34.040
- who is an Arizona State University, not a theist.
- 00:21:34.040 --> 00:21:37.477
- He says he's very curious,
- 00:21:37.477 --> 00:21:38.978
- when science goes down and down and down and then say,
- 00:21:38.978 --> 00:21:41.781
- well, the whole thing you don't inquire,
- 00:21:41.781 --> 00:21:44.884
- there's no purpose behind it all.
- 00:21:44.884 --> 00:21:47.353
- The thing is I'm looking for explanations that make sense,
- 00:21:47.353 --> 00:21:51.290
- and I prefer them over explanations that make no sense.
- 00:21:51.290 --> 00:21:54.927
- Now, here we are as people who can create our own purposes,
- 00:21:54.927 --> 00:22:00.333
- and that's a very interesting thing.
- 00:22:01.134 --> 00:22:02.368
- C.S. Lewis again, made the point,
- 00:22:02.368 --> 00:22:05.638
- "Wouldn't it be very strange," he said,
- 00:22:05.638 --> 00:22:08.641
- "If we found ourselves in a world where we got thirsty
- 00:22:08.641 --> 00:22:13.012
- and there was no such thing as water?"
- 00:22:13.012 --> 00:22:16.516
- And you see, it's like that,
- 00:22:17.116 --> 00:22:19.285
- our minds long for meaning and purpose.
- 00:22:19.285 --> 00:22:22.555
- It's one of the most important things.
- 00:22:22.555 --> 00:22:24.357
- Science doesn't give us those things,
- 00:22:24.357 --> 00:22:26.192
- except in a limited extent that a person can say,
- 00:22:26.192 --> 00:22:29.128
- my purpose in life is to solve this problem,
- 00:22:29.128 --> 00:22:32.031
- but an ultimate purpose,
- 00:22:32.031 --> 00:22:33.633
- where is it all heading and so on?
- 00:22:33.633 --> 00:22:35.968
- That is a crucial question.
- 00:22:36.569 --> 00:22:38.838
- And in the end, we can assume that it's all absurd,
- 00:22:38.838 --> 00:22:42.642
- but that's the end of the story.
- 00:22:42.642 --> 00:22:44.777
- And what if we're wrong?
- 00:22:44.777 --> 00:22:46.479
- And so I would much prefer to say,
- 00:22:46.479 --> 00:22:49.248
- if you assume it's all absurd, that is your faith.
- 00:22:50.283 --> 00:22:54.287
- There are no people,
- 00:22:54.287 --> 00:22:55.488
- and this is hugely important.
- 00:22:55.488 --> 00:22:57.690
- There are no people today who are not people of faith.
- 00:22:57.690 --> 00:23:01.794
- Every scientist is a person of faith.
- 00:23:01.794 --> 00:23:04.096
- And when anybody uses the word faith when talking to me,
- 00:23:04.096 --> 00:23:07.400
- I say, faith in what?
- 00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:09.602
- What is your faith in?
- 00:23:09.602 --> 00:23:10.536
- It's in something.
- 00:23:10.536 --> 00:23:12.205
- It may be in yourself,
- 00:23:12.205 --> 00:23:13.840
- it may be in your science,
- 00:23:13.840 --> 00:23:15.608
- it may be in atheism, or it may be in God.
- 00:23:15.608 --> 00:23:19.412
- What is the evidence that backs up your trust?
- 00:23:19.412 --> 00:23:23.716
- Because that's what faith is.
- 00:23:23.716 --> 00:23:25.618
- It's not believing where there's no evidence,
- 00:23:25.618 --> 00:23:27.887
- it's committing yourself where there is evidence.
- 00:23:27.887 --> 00:23:30.423
- Otherwise, you're just a bit crazy.
- 00:23:30.423 --> 00:23:33.259
- - John, I love what you're saying
- 00:23:33.259 --> 00:23:34.827
- and it reminds me as a young Christian
- 00:23:34.827 --> 00:23:38.130
- when I was wrestling with these issues.
- 00:23:38.130 --> 00:23:40.099
- I wanted to have so much evidence.
- 00:23:40.099 --> 00:23:42.768
- I wanted all the God believing scientists
- 00:23:42.768 --> 00:23:45.905
- to create such an airtight case
- 00:23:45.905 --> 00:23:48.708
- that faith would not be required in order to know God,
- 00:23:48.708 --> 00:23:53.980
- to love God, and to live with Him forever.
- 00:23:54.881 --> 00:23:57.650
- And yet the scriptures say that faith is...
- 00:23:57.650 --> 00:24:01.220
- It's impossible to please God without faith.
- 00:24:01.220 --> 00:24:03.289
- Faith is a gift that comes to us from God.
- 00:24:03.289 --> 00:24:05.358
- And somehow God has stacked the deck in such a way
- 00:24:05.358 --> 00:24:09.996
- that faith cannot be removed from the equation.
- 00:24:09.996 --> 00:24:13.032
- Why do you think that is?
- 00:24:13.032 --> 00:24:14.534
- - Well, because it can't be removed from any equation.
- 00:24:14.534 --> 00:24:17.503
- I can't prove to you mathematically or scientifically
- 00:24:17.503 --> 00:24:20.940
- that my wife to whom I've been married for 52 years
- 00:24:20.940 --> 00:24:23.943
- loves me,
- 00:24:23.943 --> 00:24:25.177
- but I believe there's enough evidence of that
- 00:24:25.177 --> 00:24:27.313
- for me to stake my life on it.
- 00:24:27.313 --> 00:24:29.815
- We get a bit mystified here
- 00:24:29.815 --> 00:24:32.485
- and we don't realize that faith is something that abides,
- 00:24:32.485 --> 00:24:37.757
- it goes all the way through.
- 00:24:38.357 --> 00:24:39.959
- And faith in God
- 00:24:39.959 --> 00:24:41.227
- is not simply faith in a set of propositions
- 00:24:41.227 --> 00:24:44.830
- like in science.
- 00:24:44.830 --> 00:24:46.299
- Faith in science is believing certain things,
- 00:24:46.299 --> 00:24:49.168
- equations and the rationality of the universe,
- 00:24:49.168 --> 00:24:52.672
- but when we're talking about God,
- 00:24:52.672 --> 00:24:54.140
- we're talking about faith and trust in a person.
- 00:24:54.140 --> 00:24:58.644
- And, of course, we would be very unwise,
- 00:24:58.644 --> 00:25:01.514
- these days, particularly to trust people
- 00:25:01.514 --> 00:25:03.616
- without there being evidence,
- 00:25:03.616 --> 00:25:05.017
- we need evidence for trust,
- 00:25:05.017 --> 00:25:07.253
- but evidence is the thing that leads to trust,
- 00:25:07.253 --> 00:25:10.856
- it doesn't replace it.
- 00:25:10.856 --> 00:25:12.391
- If I want to get a mortgage from a bank,
- 00:25:12.391 --> 00:25:14.994
- I go into a bank manager and he says,
- 00:25:14.994 --> 00:25:19.732
- on what basis should I trust you?
- 00:25:20.499 --> 00:25:22.101
- Well, I've got this collateral, I've got this house.
- 00:25:22.101 --> 00:25:25.071
- Well, that doesn't displace trust,
- 00:25:25.071 --> 00:25:27.740
- it gives him a reason for trust.
- 00:25:27.740 --> 00:25:29.342
- That's a very different matter.
- 00:25:29.342 --> 00:25:31.310
- So we never do away with trust,
- 00:25:31.310 --> 00:25:33.679
- even in ordinary human relationships.
- 00:25:33.679 --> 00:25:37.249
- And what I spend a lot of time doing,
- 00:25:37.249 --> 00:25:40.252
- because the new atheists have done a marvelous job
- 00:25:40.252 --> 00:25:42.888
- in getting people to think that atheists have no faith,
- 00:25:42.888 --> 00:25:47.627
- they have rationality and so on,
- 00:25:47.627 --> 00:25:49.128
- and that's sheer nonsense.
- 00:25:49.128 --> 00:25:51.063
- Richard Dawkins says in one of his books,
- 00:25:51.063 --> 00:25:52.999
- atheists have no faith,
- 00:25:52.999 --> 00:25:54.567
- and then he spends about 400 pages
- 00:25:54.567 --> 00:25:56.469
- telling us what he believes.
- 00:25:56.469 --> 00:25:58.571
- I mean, that just is sheer nonsense.
- 00:25:58.571 --> 00:26:01.540
- Christopher Hitchens was even worse.
- 00:26:01.540 --> 00:26:03.809
- He once said, "Our beliefs are not a belief,
- 00:26:03.809 --> 00:26:06.145
- our faith's not a faith."
- 00:26:06.145 --> 00:26:07.680
- Because what they get confused with
- 00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:10.650
- is the distinction between faith in a genuine self,
- 00:26:10.650 --> 00:26:14.353
- that is trust in something based on evidence
- 00:26:14.353 --> 00:26:19.258
- and blind faith,
- 00:26:19.258 --> 00:26:20.526
- which is trust where there's no evidence.
- 00:26:20.526 --> 00:26:22.795
- - Huge difference.
- 00:26:22.795 --> 00:26:24.263
- John, thank you for joining us today on Takeaways,
- 00:26:24.263 --> 00:26:26.999
- and sharing how the fields of science and math
- 00:26:26.999 --> 00:26:29.669
- are additional ways that we can find God
- 00:26:29.669 --> 00:26:31.937
- and appreciate the magnificent universe that He created.
- 00:26:31.937 --> 00:26:35.541
- Coming up next.
- 00:26:35.541 --> 00:26:36.575
- We're gonna talk with Nate Wilson
- 00:26:36.575 --> 00:26:38.210
- about how we can discover God through nature and narrative.
- 00:26:38.210 --> 00:26:42.014
- (upbeat music)
- 00:26:42.014 --> 00:26:47.994
- (upbeat music)
- 00:26:47.994 --> 00:26:54.861
- Nate Wilson is a father of five,
- 00:26:55.495 --> 00:26:57.264
- he's the husband of one,
- 00:26:57.264 --> 00:26:58.532
- and a bestselling author, producer,
- 00:26:58.532 --> 00:27:00.867
- and all around professional daydreamer.
- 00:27:00.867 --> 00:27:03.070
- If he's not chasing animals with a film crew
- 00:27:03.070 --> 00:27:05.372
- for "The Riot and the Dance,"
- 00:27:05.372 --> 00:27:06.873
- or producing ninja cartoons for Netflix,
- 00:27:06.873 --> 00:27:09.142
- or trying to finish his last fantasy series,
- 00:27:09.142 --> 00:27:11.812
- you might catch him coaching track or basketball,
- 00:27:11.812 --> 00:27:14.815
- or just yelling from the stands
- 00:27:14.815 --> 00:27:16.583
- at the nearest sporting event.
- 00:27:16.583 --> 00:27:18.285
- Unless it's Tuesday, when he always forgets
- 00:27:18.285 --> 00:27:20.253
- he's supposed to be recording his next stories
- 00:27:20.253 --> 00:27:22.489
- or soul food podcasts.
- 00:27:22.489 --> 00:27:24.491
- Nate, thanks so much for joining me, man.
- 00:27:24.491 --> 00:27:26.760
- So I remember being in Starbucks and seeing your book,
- 00:27:26.760 --> 00:27:30.597
- "Hello Ninja."
- 00:27:30.597 --> 00:27:32.132
- You're either working on a kid's book, a nonfiction book,
- 00:27:32.132 --> 00:27:35.335
- a Christian nature series,
- 00:27:35.335 --> 00:27:37.270
- or writing a mystery adventure series.
- 00:27:37.270 --> 00:27:40.974
- Man, that's a ton of storytelling.
- 00:27:40.974 --> 00:27:43.677
- What got you so focused on the art of telling stories?
- 00:27:43.677 --> 00:27:47.781
- - Probably just daydreaming in the sixth grade.
- 00:27:47.781 --> 00:27:51.017
- I mean, that's where it started.
- 00:27:51.017 --> 00:27:52.252
- I think in fifth grade is when it really began,
- 00:27:52.252 --> 00:27:54.554
- in sixth grade is when I became aware of it.
- 00:27:54.554 --> 00:27:56.923
- And in sixth grade is when I told my parents,
- 00:27:56.923 --> 00:27:58.892
- this is what I'm gonna do.
- 00:27:58.892 --> 00:28:00.260
- I'm gonna tell stories.
- 00:28:00.260 --> 00:28:01.762
- I loved Lewis, I loved Tolkien,
- 00:28:01.762 --> 00:28:03.830
- and I wanted to tell those kinds of stories.
- 00:28:03.830 --> 00:28:05.966
- I wanted to tell stories that reflected the truth
- 00:28:05.966 --> 00:28:09.136
- of the world around us,
- 00:28:09.136 --> 00:28:10.403
- that, you know, God's truth and reality,
- 00:28:10.403 --> 00:28:12.506
- but really tell them in a way that was compelling
- 00:28:12.506 --> 00:28:15.742
- to a wide audience, a broad audience
- 00:28:15.742 --> 00:28:18.178
- that kinda snuck the gospel in there
- 00:28:18.178 --> 00:28:19.980
- in different ways. - Yeah.
- 00:28:19.980 --> 00:28:21.081
- - Fiction and storytelling in general
- 00:28:21.081 --> 00:28:22.883
- can access people's souls and their loyalties and hearts
- 00:28:22.883 --> 00:28:27.287
- in a way that nonfiction can't or even...
- 00:28:27.287 --> 00:28:29.723
- - Direct communication can't.
- 00:28:30.357 --> 00:28:31.491
- So if you start telling them a story about a person,
- 00:28:31.491 --> 00:28:33.727
- and you make them sympathetic to that person
- 00:28:33.727 --> 00:28:36.129
- and loyal to that person,
- 00:28:36.129 --> 00:28:37.364
- and then you show that person making mistakes,
- 00:28:37.364 --> 00:28:39.533
- and then making good decisions, bad decisions,
- 00:28:39.533 --> 00:28:42.169
- they become courageous,
- 00:28:42.169 --> 00:28:43.703
- you send them on a journey where they pursue nobility
- 00:28:43.703 --> 00:28:46.640
- and they really actually successfully become
- 00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:49.042
- the person they're supposed to become.
- 00:28:49.042 --> 00:28:51.044
- All of those readers travel with them.
- 00:28:51.044 --> 00:28:53.880
- And you can affect them.
- 00:28:53.880 --> 00:28:55.248
- This is why stories are dangerous, too.
- 00:28:55.248 --> 00:28:56.716
- Stories are powerful for good and powerful for evil.
- 00:28:56.716 --> 00:28:59.953
- You can make people loyal to things and hate things.
- 00:28:59.953 --> 00:29:04.558
- You can make them despise things or love things.
- 00:29:04.558 --> 00:29:07.294
- And so I want to make sure,
- 00:29:07.294 --> 00:29:08.662
- like Lewis and Tolkien before me,
- 00:29:08.662 --> 00:29:10.096
- that I make my readers love the lovely,
- 00:29:10.096 --> 00:29:13.366
- and they imitate God's affections,
- 00:29:13.366 --> 00:29:15.468
- they hate what He hates, they love what He loves,
- 00:29:15.468 --> 00:29:18.004
- they learn to honor what God honors
- 00:29:18.004 --> 00:29:20.006
- and to dishonor what God dishonors.
- 00:29:20.006 --> 00:29:21.975
- And you can do that through fiction a lot more effectively
- 00:29:21.975 --> 00:29:24.711
- than you can do that through direct non-fiction.
- 00:29:24.711 --> 00:29:28.048
- - Well, I tend to be a non-fiction kind of guy.
- 00:29:28.048 --> 00:29:30.884
- I love cold hard facts and studying,
- 00:29:30.884 --> 00:29:33.353
- and researching, and charts and graphs,
- 00:29:33.353 --> 00:29:34.754
- and all that stuff.
- 00:29:34.754 --> 00:29:36.223
- However, I have to admit what you're saying is so true.
- 00:29:36.223 --> 00:29:38.758
- The power of storytelling is huge.
- 00:29:38.758 --> 00:29:41.027
- I'm rereading "Animal Farm" right now,
- 00:29:41.027 --> 00:29:42.762
- and as I'm reading through "Animal Farm,"
- 00:29:42.762 --> 00:29:44.064
- (Nate laughs) you're going, "Holy smokes,
- 00:29:44.064 --> 00:29:45.932
- we're living this stuff right now."
- 00:29:45.932 --> 00:29:47.734
- Those pigs, I know who they're talking about.
- 00:29:47.734 --> 00:29:49.970
- - The pigs, I know. - They're really smart,
- 00:29:49.970 --> 00:29:51.504
- but they're totally duping the animals,
- 00:29:51.504 --> 00:29:53.340
- and they don't understand it until it's too late.
- 00:29:53.340 --> 00:29:56.042
- And that kind of teaching is probably affecting me
- 00:29:56.042 --> 00:30:00.247
- more on an emotional level than I if I were to just read
- 00:30:00.247 --> 00:30:04.050
- about the threats of authoritarianism.
- 00:30:04.050 --> 00:30:06.386
- - Correct.
- 00:30:06.386 --> 00:30:07.520
- You actually are calibrated
- 00:30:07.520 --> 00:30:09.856
- to identify the narrative components of your own life,
- 00:30:09.856 --> 00:30:13.560
- the place where you live.
- 00:30:13.560 --> 00:30:15.328
- Because we are all characters in a story.
- 00:30:15.328 --> 00:30:18.031
- God tells a story.
- 00:30:18.031 --> 00:30:19.199
- We're here in a story.
- 00:30:19.199 --> 00:30:20.734
- Every single one of us will mess up in a given day,
- 00:30:20.734 --> 00:30:24.537
- and we'll write dialogue, realtime,
- 00:30:24.537 --> 00:30:26.840
- with no editorial review.
- 00:30:26.840 --> 00:30:28.642
- We have to be able to do it right now,
- 00:30:28.642 --> 00:30:30.777
- and we have to be able to write good dialogue
- 00:30:30.777 --> 00:30:32.512
- and be good characters,
- 00:30:32.512 --> 00:30:34.014
- and every single of one of us will be given a death scene.
- 00:30:34.014 --> 00:30:36.516
- Every one of us lives an intense story.
- 00:30:36.516 --> 00:30:39.920
- So even if we think it's a quiet domestic story,
- 00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:42.822
- you're meeting people who will live forever
- 00:30:42.822 --> 00:30:44.858
- in Heaven or in Hell.
- 00:30:44.858 --> 00:30:46.326
- And so when you read really good wholesome fiction,
- 00:30:46.326 --> 00:30:49.462
- it trains you as a narrative creature
- 00:30:49.462 --> 00:30:52.132
- to identify your own scenes
- 00:30:52.132 --> 00:30:54.134
- and your own loves and loyalties
- 00:30:54.134 --> 00:30:55.568
- in the real world, in your own life.
- 00:30:55.568 --> 00:30:57.737
- So you read "Animal Farm,"
- 00:30:57.737 --> 00:30:59.372
- and it calibrates you
- 00:30:59.372 --> 00:31:00.874
- to identify things in your own moments,
- 00:31:00.874 --> 00:31:03.243
- in your own chapter in which you're living.
- 00:31:03.243 --> 00:31:05.645
- You can see the truth of that story, that fiction,
- 00:31:05.645 --> 00:31:08.848
- in your own story.
- 00:31:08.848 --> 00:31:10.216
- When you go read non-fiction,
- 00:31:10.216 --> 00:31:11.551
- it can help you, it can equip you.
- 00:31:11.551 --> 00:31:12.819
- It can be a great thing, it can be a great tool.
- 00:31:12.819 --> 00:31:15.088
- But fiction affects us in a completely different way.
- 00:31:15.088 --> 00:31:17.691
- It grabs us by the heartstrings,
- 00:31:17.691 --> 00:31:19.659
- it grabs us by the loyalties,
- 00:31:19.659 --> 00:31:21.328
- by the loves and by the hates, too.
- 00:31:21.328 --> 00:31:23.763
- And so this is why it matters when fiction demeans faith,
- 00:31:23.763 --> 00:31:29.002
- when fiction demeans the church,
- 00:31:29.636 --> 00:31:30.870
- when fiction tries to reinforce unbelief.
- 00:31:30.870 --> 00:31:34.607
- And so you take teenage kids or adults,
- 00:31:34.607 --> 00:31:37.010
- whoever's reading whatever book,
- 00:31:37.010 --> 00:31:39.045
- and you make them loyal to the wrong things.
- 00:31:39.045 --> 00:31:41.281
- You make them loyal to the idea
- 00:31:41.281 --> 00:31:42.816
- of just following their heart wherever,
- 00:31:42.816 --> 00:31:45.018
- instead of self-sacrifice, and courage, and duty.
- 00:31:45.018 --> 00:31:48.521
- And what do you get?
- 00:31:48.521 --> 00:31:49.956
- You get a generation of people
- 00:31:49.956 --> 00:31:51.224
- who just follow their heart wherever.
- 00:31:51.224 --> 00:31:53.259
- And hot tip: It doesn't work out.
- 00:31:53.259 --> 00:31:56.229
- - No. - It just does not work out.
- 00:31:56.229 --> 00:31:58.198
- - Don't follow your heat.
- 00:31:58.198 --> 00:31:59.499
- Your heart will deceive you. - Don't do it.
- 00:31:59.499 --> 00:32:00.600
- Don't do it.
- 00:32:00.600 --> 00:32:01.768
- So that comes from fiction:
- 00:32:01.768 --> 00:32:04.404
- from movies, from shows, from books.
- 00:32:04.404 --> 00:32:06.539
- It doesn't come from non-fiction treatises
- 00:32:06.539 --> 00:32:08.908
- about the importance of following one's heart.
- 00:32:08.908 --> 00:32:11.411
- It actually culturally occurs
- 00:32:11.411 --> 00:32:14.581
- over there in the storytelling.
- 00:32:14.581 --> 00:32:16.049
- So people are led as a group,
- 00:32:16.049 --> 00:32:18.752
- primarily through their stories.
- 00:32:18.752 --> 00:32:20.620
- And when we forget to tell stories,
- 00:32:20.620 --> 00:32:22.422
- or we try to recast the past
- 00:32:22.422 --> 00:32:24.491
- so our Founding Fathers are suddenly villains,
- 00:32:24.491 --> 00:32:27.627
- when you go back and try to retell your origin story
- 00:32:27.627 --> 00:32:30.330
- as a people, you try to retell old stories,
- 00:32:30.330 --> 00:32:33.767
- it's like what are you doing?
- 00:32:33.767 --> 00:32:35.468
- Then why are you doing it in story?
- 00:32:35.468 --> 00:32:36.703
- Why does it matter so much
- 00:32:36.703 --> 00:32:38.438
- that you ruin their characters in-story?
- 00:32:38.438 --> 00:32:42.075
- So that you can smash people's loyalty to them
- 00:32:42.075 --> 00:32:45.111
- and get them to go a different direction.
- 00:32:45.111 --> 00:32:47.380
- - I love the way that you help us to think
- 00:32:47.380 --> 00:32:49.416
- about our lives as a story,
- 00:32:49.416 --> 00:32:52.218
- and learning how to interpret the story that we're in.
- 00:32:52.218 --> 00:32:54.421
- One of my favorite books that I read as a kid
- 00:32:54.421 --> 00:32:57.123
- was the Choose Your Own Adventure Series of books.
- 00:32:57.123 --> 00:32:59.292
- And what we love about that
- 00:32:59.292 --> 00:33:00.560
- is that here we come to this crossroads,
- 00:33:00.560 --> 00:33:02.462
- and we have this great decision to make.
- 00:33:02.462 --> 00:33:03.863
- And if you make this decision, you go to page 73.
- 00:33:03.863 --> 00:33:05.365
- If you make that decision, you go to page 84.
- 00:33:05.365 --> 00:33:07.667
- And it could be your death scene
- 00:33:07.667 --> 00:33:09.302
- or it could be a new beginning.
- 00:33:09.302 --> 00:33:12.205
- And what's cool about what you're saying
- 00:33:12.205 --> 00:33:13.940
- is that we're in a story right now,
- 00:33:13.940 --> 00:33:17.110
- and we actually, in some senses,
- 00:33:17.110 --> 00:33:18.678
- do choose our own adventure.
- 00:33:18.678 --> 00:33:20.547
- We're partnering with God,
- 00:33:20.547 --> 00:33:22.082
- who's the ultimate Author of the story, right?
- 00:33:22.082 --> 00:33:23.950
- But He's allowing us to make real choices, realtime,
- 00:33:23.950 --> 00:33:27.153
- and that affects the ending of the story.
- 00:33:27.153 --> 00:33:29.556
- - Yeah, it really does.
- 00:33:29.556 --> 00:33:30.790
- So He gives us this freedom of operation,
- 00:33:30.790 --> 00:33:33.893
- and He tells us to write our scenes.
- 00:33:33.893 --> 00:33:36.062
- Now so much of it He's writing as well.
- 00:33:36.062 --> 00:33:37.964
- He's overseeing it,
- 00:33:37.964 --> 00:33:39.232
- but He lets us write in wet concrete.
- 00:33:39.232 --> 00:33:41.301
- It's like, I can't go back
- 00:33:41.301 --> 00:33:43.203
- and edit what I just did in history.
- 00:33:43.203 --> 00:33:45.305
- I can't go back and edit yesterday.
- 00:33:45.305 --> 00:33:47.407
- It is, I wrote it in a wet sidewalk,
- 00:33:47.407 --> 00:33:49.509
- and now it's hard,
- 00:33:49.509 --> 00:33:50.977
- and He's got me moving onto the next patch of wet concrete.
- 00:33:50.977 --> 00:33:54.247
- And it's amazing that He gives us that freedom,
- 00:33:54.247 --> 00:33:56.816
- but the other thing He gives us,
- 00:33:56.816 --> 00:33:58.284
- and the perspective we need to keep,
- 00:33:58.284 --> 00:33:59.686
- is that we are secondary characters
- 00:33:59.686 --> 00:34:02.322
- in other people's stories.
- 00:34:02.322 --> 00:34:03.957
- And we're all secondary characters in the story.
- 00:34:03.957 --> 00:34:06.893
- None of us are the hero of the story.
- 00:34:06.893 --> 00:34:10.196
- We're all secondary characters.
- 00:34:10.196 --> 00:34:12.132
- And so while we have short stories, and arcs,
- 00:34:12.132 --> 00:34:15.135
- and narratives where we are the lead,
- 00:34:15.135 --> 00:34:17.770
- little micro arcs where we're the lead character
- 00:34:17.770 --> 00:34:20.273
- in a particular incident,
- 00:34:20.273 --> 00:34:21.975
- it's really important to focus on being a great character
- 00:34:21.975 --> 00:34:25.945
- in the stories of others.
- 00:34:25.945 --> 00:34:27.981
- So especially if you're a father,
- 00:34:27.981 --> 00:34:29.849
- if you're a husband,
- 00:34:29.849 --> 00:34:31.084
- you think about the fact that the life story
- 00:34:31.084 --> 00:34:33.686
- of your children starts with,
- 00:34:33.686 --> 00:34:35.889
- the early chapters are "My dad was horrible,
- 00:34:35.889 --> 00:34:38.391
- my dad was absent,
- 00:34:38.391 --> 00:34:39.826
- my dad always had a short fuse,"
- 00:34:39.826 --> 00:34:42.762
- or "My dad always had time for me,
- 00:34:42.762 --> 00:34:44.964
- my dad always listened,
- 00:34:44.964 --> 00:34:46.299
- my dad was loving and kind."
- 00:34:46.299 --> 00:34:48.468
- And those early chapters of their life story,
- 00:34:48.468 --> 00:34:51.171
- those are for you to write as well.
- 00:34:51.971 --> 00:34:53.239
- It's terrifying.
- 00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:54.440
- So not only does God give you freedom
- 00:34:54.440 --> 00:34:55.975
- to write in your own story,
- 00:34:55.975 --> 00:34:57.443
- He gives you freedom to write in the stories of others.
- 00:34:57.443 --> 00:34:59.412
- - For people who think,
- 00:34:59.412 --> 00:35:01.047
- "Well, I've just never done anything great in my life,
- 00:35:01.047 --> 00:35:04.250
- all I did was have kids,"
- 00:35:04.250 --> 00:35:05.218
- no, no, no, wait a minute.
- 00:35:05.218 --> 00:35:06.719
- You are a huge character in a very important story:
- 00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:10.523
- the lives of your children.
- 00:35:10.523 --> 00:35:11.858
- - Yeah.
- 00:35:11.858 --> 00:35:13.126
- - And you're perhaps the opening chapter.
- 00:35:13.126 --> 00:35:15.195
- - There's a woman who was a young girl, 18,
- 00:35:15.195 --> 00:35:19.532
- who taught in a one-room school house in Nebraska,
- 00:35:19.532 --> 00:35:22.402
- who changed my life.
- 00:35:22.869 --> 00:35:25.672
- I exist because of what this woman did
- 00:35:25.672 --> 00:35:28.241
- for my grandfather when he was in third grade.
- 00:35:28.241 --> 00:35:30.843
- It's like, that's okay, I don't even know her name.
- 00:35:30.843 --> 00:35:34.781
- I don't know her name.
- 00:35:34.781 --> 00:35:36.249
- He had a bunch of illness, he was falling behind.
- 00:35:36.249 --> 00:35:39.118
- He started to think of himself as really unintelligent,
- 00:35:39.118 --> 00:35:42.822
- couldn't do school.
- 00:35:42.822 --> 00:35:44.557
- She had a one-room school house.
- 00:35:44.557 --> 00:35:46.092
- And so she saw this insecure kid,
- 00:35:46.092 --> 00:35:48.628
- and she focused on him getting up to speed,
- 00:35:48.628 --> 00:35:52.031
- and said, "Okay," while everything else was going on,
- 00:35:52.031 --> 00:35:53.766
- "I'm gonna really work with you,
- 00:35:53.766 --> 00:35:55.134
- and we're gonna do multiple years in one year.
- 00:35:55.134 --> 00:35:57.370
- I'm gonna get you up to your age.
- 00:35:57.370 --> 00:35:58.972
- We're gonna make this happen."
- 00:35:58.972 --> 00:36:00.340
- And she did.
- 00:36:00.340 --> 00:36:01.574
- He ended up going to the Naval Academy,
- 00:36:01.574 --> 00:36:03.042
- being a naval officer,
- 00:36:03.042 --> 00:36:03.977
- meeting my grandmother in Japan.
- 00:36:03.977 --> 00:36:05.979
- She created a really legendary guy.
- 00:36:05.979 --> 00:36:08.681
- He was really a great leader,
- 00:36:08.681 --> 00:36:10.817
- a great leader in war,
- 00:36:10.817 --> 00:36:12.051
- a great leader in evangelism,
- 00:36:12.051 --> 00:36:13.987
- and it goes back to this 18-year-old girl
- 00:36:13.987 --> 00:36:16.055
- in a one-room school house in Nebraska.
- 00:36:16.055 --> 00:36:18.024
- And you have these formative moments
- 00:36:18.024 --> 00:36:20.860
- where you decide to be what kind of character
- 00:36:20.860 --> 00:36:23.730
- in these eternal stories. - Yeah.
- 00:36:23.730 --> 00:36:25.198
- - And then the downstream consequences are left to God.
- 00:36:25.198 --> 00:36:28.067
- It's kind of like being Johnny Appleseed in narrative,
- 00:36:28.067 --> 00:36:30.837
- where you're just going through life,
- 00:36:30.837 --> 00:36:32.672
- and you're throwing seeds,
- 00:36:32.672 --> 00:36:34.040
- and you're throwing scenes,
- 00:36:34.040 --> 00:36:35.475
- and you're just moving through people's lives.
- 00:36:35.475 --> 00:36:37.944
- And you might be out of focus in the background barely,
- 00:36:37.944 --> 00:36:40.380
- or you might have a more important role,
- 00:36:40.380 --> 00:36:43.816
- but you're leaving it to God,
- 00:36:43.816 --> 00:36:45.218
- you're leaving it to the Holy Spirit
- 00:36:45.218 --> 00:36:46.753
- to do with it what He will in these other narratives.
- 00:36:46.753 --> 00:36:49.522
- But ultimately, the entire story is about Christ.
- 00:36:49.522 --> 00:36:52.792
- The entire story is about the redemption of the world.
- 00:36:52.792 --> 00:36:54.294
- It's about the coming of the Son.
- 00:36:54.294 --> 00:36:56.462
- And so no matter how important these people might be,
- 00:36:56.462 --> 00:36:59.098
- some kid might be president, that I affect.
- 00:36:59.098 --> 00:37:01.567
- He's still just a secondary character.
- 00:37:01.567 --> 00:37:04.003
- He's living an arc.
- 00:37:04.003 --> 00:37:05.505
- He might become the most powerful man in the world.
- 00:37:05.505 --> 00:37:07.140
- He's a little secondary character.
- 00:37:07.140 --> 00:37:09.342
- - In the big story. - In the big story.
- 00:37:09.342 --> 00:37:11.377
- And so realizing that that's our job,
- 00:37:11.377 --> 00:37:13.579
- our job is to image the Son,
- 00:37:13.579 --> 00:37:16.115
- image the Father in the lives of others
- 00:37:16.115 --> 00:37:18.718
- as we pass through these scenes,
- 00:37:18.718 --> 00:37:20.753
- it becomes really potent,
- 00:37:21.321 --> 00:37:22.789
- it becomes really strong,
- 00:37:22.789 --> 00:37:23.990
- it becomes highly motivating
- 00:37:23.990 --> 00:37:25.224
- to not ever snap on an Uber driver,
- 00:37:25.224 --> 00:37:27.226
- to not ever get frustrated at your kids
- 00:37:27.226 --> 00:37:29.395
- when they spill milk,
- 00:37:29.395 --> 00:37:30.630
- to try to write the right dialogue
- 00:37:30.630 --> 00:37:32.832
- and respond in the right ways
- 00:37:32.832 --> 00:37:34.934
- when all these provocations come.
- 00:37:34.934 --> 00:37:36.769
- We live in a moment that's unlike any other moment,
- 00:37:36.769 --> 00:37:39.339
- a moment of bizarre tyranny,
- 00:37:39.339 --> 00:37:40.773
- a moment of overreach, a moment of fear.
- 00:37:40.773 --> 00:37:44.177
- And how are we living?
- 00:37:44.177 --> 00:37:45.411
- How are we standing up in this moment?
- 00:37:45.411 --> 00:37:47.480
- Are we full of joy?
- 00:37:47.480 --> 00:37:49.716
- Are we characters who are full of joy and unafraid?
- 00:37:49.716 --> 00:37:52.552
- How do we image God in this particular narrative
- 00:37:52.552 --> 00:37:56.255
- in which we've been placed in this chapter?
- 00:37:56.255 --> 00:37:58.624
- And we get trained for that
- 00:37:58.624 --> 00:38:00.560
- by reading about Sam and Frodo,
- 00:38:00.560 --> 00:38:03.062
- and Aragorn and Gandalf,
- 00:38:03.062 --> 00:38:04.997
- and reading "Charlotte's Web" and "Animal Farm,"
- 00:38:04.997 --> 00:38:08.234
- and reading about Prince Caspian.
- 00:38:08.234 --> 00:38:11.104
- When you're little, you read those things,
- 00:38:11.104 --> 00:38:12.772
- and you read stories when you're older,
- 00:38:12.772 --> 00:38:14.140
- and it reinforces what is the courageous action
- 00:38:14.140 --> 00:38:17.176
- of the character in this moment.
- 00:38:17.176 --> 00:38:18.478
- - [Kirk] Yeah.
- 00:38:18.478 --> 00:38:19.312
- - What's a sellout?
- 00:38:19.312 --> 00:38:20.780
- What does it look like?
- 00:38:20.780 --> 00:38:21.948
- - Nate, Jesus taught in parables,
- 00:38:21.948 --> 00:38:24.384
- so He loved to tell stories
- 00:38:24.384 --> 00:38:25.885
- when He was teaching His disciples.
- 00:38:25.885 --> 00:38:27.186
- I wonder, if Jesus were here today,
- 00:38:27.186 --> 00:38:29.155
- do you think He'd have His own YouTube channel?
- 00:38:29.155 --> 00:38:30.923
- Do you think He'd have a podcast?
- 00:38:30.923 --> 00:38:32.291
- Would He have short children's books in Starbucks?
- 00:38:32.291 --> 00:38:35.695
- - I think He'd be more subversive than that.
- 00:38:35.695 --> 00:38:37.463
- It'd be hard for me to anticipate exactly what He would do,
- 00:38:37.463 --> 00:38:40.633
- because I am trying to make money and pay the bills,
- 00:38:40.633 --> 00:38:43.035
- and do it professionally.
- 00:38:43.035 --> 00:38:43.936
- He would not be.
- 00:38:43.936 --> 00:38:45.905
- He would be trying to smash a lot of the infrastructure,
- 00:38:45.905 --> 00:38:48.474
- undermine a lot of the infrastructure
- 00:38:48.474 --> 00:38:49.642
- that we've build for ourselves,
- 00:38:49.642 --> 00:38:51.277
- while living the story He was living.
- 00:38:51.277 --> 00:38:54.147
- So I think that He would be teaching with story.
- 00:38:54.147 --> 00:38:56.449
- I don't think He'd be teaching with story
- 00:38:56.449 --> 00:38:58.251
- in the professional,
- 00:38:58.251 --> 00:39:00.186
- within the apparatus that we use ourselves.
- 00:39:00.186 --> 00:39:02.755
- I think He would control His own apparatus completely.
- 00:39:02.755 --> 00:39:05.825
- But it is interesting that He tells stories so often.
- 00:39:05.825 --> 00:39:09.896
- He uses stories to communicate.
- 00:39:09.896 --> 00:39:12.799
- And He uses stories sometimes to kinda confuse.
- 00:39:12.799 --> 00:39:16.302
- So we're told that every now and then He tells a story
- 00:39:16.302 --> 00:39:19.672
- to keep people wondering.
- 00:39:19.672 --> 00:39:21.707
- It makes them ponder, it makes them wonder,
- 00:39:21.707 --> 00:39:25.244
- not because it's clear, but because it's unclear.
- 00:39:25.244 --> 00:39:28.080
- So there's times when you tell a story
- 00:39:28.080 --> 00:39:29.715
- because you can hit people in their sympathies,
- 00:39:29.715 --> 00:39:31.918
- and afterwards, they have to work through it
- 00:39:31.918 --> 00:39:34.253
- and figure it out.
- 00:39:34.253 --> 00:39:35.788
- And there's other times you tell stories
- 00:39:35.788 --> 00:39:37.290
- to really make it clear.
- 00:39:37.290 --> 00:39:38.558
- So Nathan the Prophet tells a story to David
- 00:39:38.558 --> 00:39:41.527
- about the man who steals a lamb.
- 00:39:41.527 --> 00:39:43.329
- What would you do to this man who steals a lamb?
- 00:39:43.329 --> 00:39:45.097
- And Nathan uses a story to make it really obvious
- 00:39:45.097 --> 00:39:48.835
- to David which character he should hate.
- 00:39:48.835 --> 00:39:51.838
- Those are those loyalties and those hates.
- 00:39:52.738 --> 00:39:54.373
- Nathan gets David to hate himself by means of fiction.
- 00:39:54.373 --> 00:39:58.611
- And Christ does some of the same stuff in parables.
- 00:39:58.611 --> 00:40:01.681
- Where do you put your loyalties?
- 00:40:01.681 --> 00:40:04.517
- Which things do you love?
- 00:40:04.517 --> 00:40:05.918
- And so whether it's Parables of the Talents,
- 00:40:05.918 --> 00:40:08.921
- the harsh master, things like that,
- 00:40:08.921 --> 00:40:10.890
- He tells these stories,
- 00:40:10.890 --> 00:40:12.592
- and He tells them
- 00:40:12.592 --> 00:40:13.826
- to communicate how awful this generation is,
- 00:40:13.826 --> 00:40:16.829
- to condemn a generation,
- 00:40:16.829 --> 00:40:18.798
- and sometimes just to make them think
- 00:40:18.798 --> 00:40:20.566
- and be a little bit confused.
- 00:40:20.566 --> 00:40:23.736
- But He's constantly telling stories.
- 00:40:23.736 --> 00:40:26.305
- - When we come back,
- 00:40:26.305 --> 00:40:27.607
- I wanna talk about a specific project
- 00:40:27.607 --> 00:40:29.775
- that Nate's been working on: "The Riot and the Dance."
- 00:40:29.775 --> 00:40:32.311
- We'll be right back.
- 00:40:32.311 --> 00:40:33.212
- (upbeat music)
- 00:40:33.212 --> 00:40:38.997
- (upbeat music)
- 00:40:38.997 --> 00:40:39.285
- (upbeat music)
- 00:40:39.652 --> 00:40:46.425
- We're back with Nate Wilson
- 00:40:47.026 --> 00:40:48.194
- after a fascinating conversation
- 00:40:48.194 --> 00:40:50.096
- about the importance of story.
- 00:40:50.096 --> 00:40:52.598
- Now we're gonna dive into the complexities of creation
- 00:40:52.598 --> 00:40:56.135
- through the perspective of his new documentary series,
- 00:40:56.135 --> 00:40:59.438
- called "The Riot and the Dance."
- 00:40:59.438 --> 00:41:01.908
- Nate, I've seen the beginnings of this series,
- 00:41:01.908 --> 00:41:04.610
- and it is mind-blowing.
- 00:41:04.610 --> 00:41:06.112
- I love nature series,
- 00:41:06.112 --> 00:41:07.580
- but you're giving this nature series a whole new twist.
- 00:41:07.580 --> 00:41:10.616
- Tell us what it's all about.
- 00:41:10.616 --> 00:41:12.618
- - It's funny that it is a whole new twist,
- 00:41:12.618 --> 00:41:14.854
- but it is a whole new twist.
- 00:41:14.854 --> 00:41:17.056
- So it's one of the things that has bothered me forever,
- 00:41:17.056 --> 00:41:20.393
- is the fact that we've just conceded as Christians,
- 00:41:20.393 --> 00:41:22.828
- just conceded the world of nature documentary filmmaking
- 00:41:22.828 --> 00:41:26.666
- to unbelievers.
- 00:41:26.666 --> 00:41:28.167
- So we just let a tiny fraction
- 00:41:28.167 --> 00:41:31.037
- of the percentage of the worldview of the world,
- 00:41:31.037 --> 00:41:33.439
- a very, very small fraction of the world
- 00:41:33.439 --> 00:41:35.141
- is actually atheistic.
- 00:41:35.141 --> 00:41:36.709
- But we let that worldview curate
- 00:41:36.709 --> 00:41:40.613
- all of nature documentary filmmaking.
- 00:41:40.613 --> 00:41:42.615
- So it just controls it completely.
- 00:41:42.615 --> 00:41:44.984
- And yet, these are all our animals.
- 00:41:44.984 --> 00:41:47.520
- These are all our trees.
- 00:41:47.520 --> 00:41:49.522
- These are our landscapes that God made,
- 00:41:49.522 --> 00:41:51.791
- and we are the heirs.
- 00:41:51.791 --> 00:41:53.292
- We are the heirs who are gonna inherit all of this.
- 00:41:53.292 --> 00:41:55.861
- Our older Brother bought it with His blood,
- 00:41:55.861 --> 00:41:59.265
- bought it all back.
- 00:41:59.265 --> 00:42:00.099
- This is His.
- 00:42:00.099 --> 00:42:01.534
- And here we are, just letting them film it
- 00:42:01.534 --> 00:42:04.804
- and then narrate it.
- 00:42:04.804 --> 00:42:06.238
- So I love nature documentaries, too,
- 00:42:06.238 --> 00:42:08.174
- but one of the things that happens
- 00:42:08.174 --> 00:42:09.709
- in all nature documentaries is that they tell your kids,
- 00:42:09.709 --> 00:42:12.178
- and they tell you, that this is all meaningless,
- 00:42:12.178 --> 00:42:14.647
- this is all pointless, this is an accident.
- 00:42:14.647 --> 00:42:17.483
- - Survival of the fittest.
- 00:42:17.483 --> 00:42:18.751
- - Yeah, just chaos. This is just chaos.
- 00:42:18.751 --> 00:42:20.286
- This is all accidental.
- 00:42:20.286 --> 00:42:21.854
- And it's like studying a Rembrandt or reading Shakespeare,
- 00:42:21.854 --> 00:42:24.323
- and somebody telling you that it was the result
- 00:42:24.323 --> 00:42:26.425
- of an explosion.
- 00:42:26.425 --> 00:42:27.760
- And so you look at this paint on a canvas,
- 00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:30.696
- and instead of appreciating it
- 00:42:30.696 --> 00:42:31.964
- and studying it for what it is,
- 00:42:31.964 --> 00:42:33.499
- incredible engineering and artistry,
- 00:42:33.499 --> 00:42:36.268
- you look at it, and they say, "This was an accident.
- 00:42:36.268 --> 00:42:39.105
- It just blew up this way."
- 00:42:39.105 --> 00:42:40.840
- And it just demeans it.
- 00:42:40.840 --> 00:42:42.508
- It demeans it completely,
- 00:42:42.508 --> 00:42:43.776
- and it tries to remove the art from the artist.
- 00:42:43.776 --> 00:42:46.512
- So I wanted to make nature documentaries
- 00:42:46.512 --> 00:42:49.815
- that keep the artist present in the appreciation of His art.
- 00:42:49.815 --> 00:42:53.552
- I want to celebrate creation and honor the Creator
- 00:42:53.552 --> 00:42:56.489
- while we look at His animals.
- 00:42:56.489 --> 00:42:58.524
- So He loves His animals.
- 00:42:58.524 --> 00:43:00.559
- He brags on His animals in scripture.
- 00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:03.629
- In Job, there's some great lines
- 00:43:03.629 --> 00:43:05.665
- where God just appreciates His animals.
- 00:43:05.665 --> 00:43:08.901
- And it's like, "Have you seen this? It's amazing."
- 00:43:08.901 --> 00:43:11.337
- He just really talks them up.
- 00:43:11.337 --> 00:43:14.607
- And then Job is told to "Ask the beasts,
- 00:43:14.607 --> 00:43:16.709
- and they will teach you."
- 00:43:16.709 --> 00:43:17.543
- Go to the beasts.
- 00:43:17.543 --> 00:43:19.445
- So I wanna do that.
- 00:43:19.445 --> 00:43:20.613
- I wanna go to the beasts,
- 00:43:20.613 --> 00:43:21.781
- and I wanna study them,
- 00:43:21.781 --> 00:43:23.015
- and I wanna learn from God by studying His art
- 00:43:23.015 --> 00:43:26.519
- and His creation,
- 00:43:26.519 --> 00:43:27.787
- and see His humor, His joy, His love,
- 00:43:27.787 --> 00:43:31.190
- and watch His animals
- 00:43:31.190 --> 00:43:33.626
- in a way that points us to their Maker.
- 00:43:33.626 --> 00:43:36.262
- - I love how you bring a sense of humor into this series,
- 00:43:36.262 --> 00:43:38.698
- as well as you describe some of the animals
- 00:43:38.698 --> 00:43:40.766
- and the way that they're shaped.
- 00:43:40.766 --> 00:43:41.967
- (Nate laughs)
- 00:43:41.967 --> 00:43:43.402
- Their lack of aerodynamic ability designed by the Creator,
- 00:43:43.402 --> 00:43:48.074
- share some of that with us.
- 00:43:48.674 --> 00:43:49.475
- - So if you think about,
- 00:43:49.475 --> 00:43:50.943
- if you look at things like a bumblebee verses a caterpillar,
- 00:43:50.943 --> 00:43:55.514
- and you can see some of God's humor in both of those things,
- 00:43:56.716 --> 00:43:58.884
- things that are kind of heavy, corpulent, bulky.
- 00:43:58.884 --> 00:44:01.420
- The bumblebee, we look at and we think,
- 00:44:01.420 --> 00:44:02.655
- "How can this thing even get off the ground?"
- 00:44:02.655 --> 00:44:05.257
- It's got extra-recoil rubber bands inside of its thorax
- 00:44:05.257 --> 00:44:09.528
- that enables the wings to snap back faster,
- 00:44:09.528 --> 00:44:11.931
- to try to get in just a little bit extra
- 00:44:11.931 --> 00:44:14.066
- so it can get off the ground at all.
- 00:44:14.066 --> 00:44:16.135
- But forever, people couldn't figure out
- 00:44:16.135 --> 00:44:18.337
- how a bumblebee could fly.
- 00:44:18.337 --> 00:44:20.139
- It just physically shouldn't be able to fly,
- 00:44:20.139 --> 00:44:22.241
- and yet we can just watch it.
- 00:44:22.241 --> 00:44:23.642
- There it goes, (buzzes).
- 00:44:23.642 --> 00:44:25.244
- And it obviously can't fly well,
- 00:44:25.244 --> 00:44:27.113
- as it's smacking into things and careening around.
- 00:44:27.113 --> 00:44:30.116
- But then you look at a caterpillar,
- 00:44:30.116 --> 00:44:31.484
- and what does this tell you about God?
- 00:44:31.484 --> 00:44:32.885
- Here's just this wriggly thing
- 00:44:32.885 --> 00:44:35.087
- that's just getting fatter, and fatter, and fatter,
- 00:44:35.087 --> 00:44:38.190
- as fast as it can,
- 00:44:38.190 --> 00:44:39.458
- and just (gurgles), just around your backyard,
- 00:44:39.458 --> 00:44:42.495
- just goes (grumbles).
- 00:44:42.495 --> 00:44:44.230
- And you stare at it like God's a cartoonist.
- 00:44:44.230 --> 00:44:48.067
- This is a cartoon. (Kirk chuckles)
- 00:44:48.834 --> 00:44:50.069
- And this thing's this corpulent, blobby thing,
- 00:44:50.069 --> 00:44:53.506
- and it just eats, and eats, and eats
- 00:44:53.506 --> 00:44:55.007
- until finally, one day, it decides to hold really still
- 00:44:55.007 --> 00:44:58.444
- and turn into soup.
- 00:44:58.444 --> 00:45:00.146
- And it turns into soup without any decision of its own.
- 00:45:00.146 --> 00:45:02.782
- It can't do it.
- 00:45:02.782 --> 00:45:04.383
- It turns into soup,
- 00:45:04.383 --> 00:45:06.385
- and then the soup reconstitutes itself as a flying flower,
- 00:45:06.385 --> 00:45:10.189
- as this brightly-colored, really lightweight thing.
- 00:45:10.189 --> 00:45:13.392
- So you see the humor of God there, too,
- 00:45:13.392 --> 00:45:15.127
- where He takes something really, really fat and heavy,
- 00:45:15.127 --> 00:45:18.831
- this little chubby worm that's eating your garden,
- 00:45:18.831 --> 00:45:21.634
- and He turns it into soup,
- 00:45:21.634 --> 00:45:23.569
- and that turns into this beautiful,
- 00:45:23.569 --> 00:45:25.137
- lightweight flying object.
- 00:45:25.137 --> 00:45:27.273
- But it liquifies.
- 00:45:27.273 --> 00:45:28.407
- I mean, it turns into liquid,
- 00:45:28.407 --> 00:45:30.142
- and then reconstitutes itself as this flying flower.
- 00:45:30.142 --> 00:45:33.546
- And if it's a monarch butterfly,
- 00:45:33.546 --> 00:45:34.847
- it knows the way to Mexico,
- 00:45:34.847 --> 00:45:36.849
- and it has a deep, burning need to get there right now.
- 00:45:36.849 --> 00:45:40.186
- And it could be in Nova Scotia or up by Seattle,
- 00:45:40.186 --> 00:45:43.389
- but this caterpillar liquifies,
- 00:45:43.389 --> 00:45:45.691
- becomes a monarch butterfly,
- 00:45:45.691 --> 00:45:47.326
- and says, "I have to get to Mexico.
- 00:45:47.326 --> 00:45:49.595
- I gotta go."
- 00:45:49.595 --> 00:45:51.030
- The promise of the resurrection is everywhere in creation.
- 00:45:51.030 --> 00:45:53.499
- You see it.
- 00:45:53.499 --> 00:45:54.767
- You see His patterns all over the place.
- 00:45:54.767 --> 00:45:56.302
- You see it in winter to spring,
- 00:45:56.302 --> 00:45:57.670
- over, and over, and over again.
- 00:45:57.670 --> 00:45:59.271
- You see it in- - Death and resurrection.
- 00:45:59.271 --> 00:46:00.706
- - Yep, you see it in metamorphosis.
- 00:46:00.706 --> 00:46:03.242
- You see it in a dragonfly nymph
- 00:46:03.242 --> 00:46:06.345
- that's swimming around by swallowing water
- 00:46:06.345 --> 00:46:09.381
- and blasting it out of its backside.
- 00:46:09.381 --> 00:46:11.217
- It's an underwater jet.
- 00:46:11.217 --> 00:46:14.587
- That's the only way it swims.
- 00:46:14.587 --> 00:46:16.188
- And then it, one day, crawls up a blade of grass
- 00:46:16.188 --> 00:46:19.425
- into the sun.
- 00:46:19.425 --> 00:46:20.960
- And what makes it do that?
- 00:46:20.960 --> 00:46:23.028
- It's an underwater creature,
- 00:46:23.028 --> 00:46:24.296
- what does it even know about up there?
- 00:46:24.296 --> 00:46:26.432
- And one day, it's called up,
- 00:46:26.432 --> 00:46:27.933
- and it just crawls up into the sun.
- 00:46:27.933 --> 00:46:30.135
- The sun hardens it,
- 00:46:30.135 --> 00:46:31.403
- it splits open, and it crawls out of itself.
- 00:46:31.403 --> 00:46:34.306
- And now it's a dragonfly.
- 00:46:34.306 --> 00:46:35.708
- And its wings unfold, its abdomen unrolls.
- 00:46:35.708 --> 00:46:38.677
- It became itself inside this thing.
- 00:46:38.677 --> 00:46:41.981
- And then its wings harden in the sun,
- 00:46:41.981 --> 00:46:43.549
- they'll never fold again, and it flies off,
- 00:46:43.549 --> 00:46:46.585
- somehow knowing how to do that.
- 00:46:46.585 --> 00:46:48.320
- And I know we see that promise there.
- 00:46:48.320 --> 00:46:51.523
- And then we see the promise for us
- 00:46:51.523 --> 00:46:52.925
- that we're gonna go into the ground
- 00:46:52.925 --> 00:46:54.159
- like seeds for the resurrection.
- 00:46:54.159 --> 00:46:56.128
- And we're told that over, and over, and over again,
- 00:46:56.128 --> 00:46:57.997
- that we're seeds.
- 00:46:57.997 --> 00:46:59.498
- We're seeds for the resurrection.
- 00:46:59.498 --> 00:47:01.033
- And it's still this hard faith of,
- 00:47:01.033 --> 00:47:02.768
- "But I'm a caterpillar, and I don't wanna turn to soup.
- 00:47:02.768 --> 00:47:05.571
- I'm a dragonfly nymph,
- 00:47:05.571 --> 00:47:06.805
- I don't wanna climb up into the sun."
- 00:47:06.805 --> 00:47:08.774
- But I have to trust my Father,
- 00:47:08.774 --> 00:47:10.075
- that He knows what He's doing.
- 00:47:10.075 --> 00:47:11.810
- And I've seen the pattern of His creation everywhere.
- 00:47:11.810 --> 00:47:14.380
- He takes things,
- 00:47:14.380 --> 00:47:15.881
- and He loves to give them this moment of resurrection,
- 00:47:15.881 --> 00:47:18.484
- this moment of fulfillment into something more beautiful
- 00:47:18.484 --> 00:47:21.253
- and more magnificent, that's still the same thing,
- 00:47:21.253 --> 00:47:23.689
- still somehow itself, but way more,
- 00:47:23.689 --> 00:47:26.592
- just way more, dialed up to beautiful and phenomenal.
- 00:47:26.592 --> 00:47:31.130
- And so we see this all over the place,
- 00:47:31.130 --> 00:47:32.531
- and yet we still fear, and we sill worry,
- 00:47:32.531 --> 00:47:35.534
- even though we know we're in the hands of an artist
- 00:47:35.534 --> 00:47:37.269
- who loves to tell that story.
- 00:47:37.269 --> 00:47:39.305
- And when He tells us we're seeds for the resurrection,
- 00:47:39.305 --> 00:47:41.240
- we should just believe Him
- 00:47:41.240 --> 00:47:42.641
- and know that it's gonna be amazing.
- 00:47:42.641 --> 00:47:45.110
- It's absolutely gonna be phenomenal.
- 00:47:45.110 --> 00:47:46.946
- - Nate, what can parents look forward to learning
- 00:47:46.946 --> 00:47:51.417
- and their kids learning
- 00:47:51.417 --> 00:47:52.618
- by watching "The Riot and the Dance"?
- 00:47:52.618 --> 00:47:54.987
- - The goal for everything I do,
- 00:47:54.987 --> 00:47:57.156
- whether it's fiction, but also for "Riot and the Dance,"
- 00:47:57.156 --> 00:47:59.425
- the goal is to make people more interested,
- 00:47:59.425 --> 00:48:03.062
- and therefore more interesting in their own narratives.
- 00:48:03.062 --> 00:48:06.131
- In your own lives, in your own days, in your own weeks,
- 00:48:07.232 --> 00:48:09.301
- in your own years, however many God gives you,
- 00:48:09.301 --> 00:48:11.737
- to be the best character you can be,
- 00:48:11.737 --> 00:48:13.906
- to be the best version of that character you can be.
- 00:48:13.906 --> 00:48:16.041
- And so I want to wake up families,
- 00:48:16.041 --> 00:48:19.311
- especially really comfortable modern families,
- 00:48:19.311 --> 00:48:21.313
- where we all have smartphones
- 00:48:21.313 --> 00:48:22.581
- and cars with air conditioning,
- 00:48:22.581 --> 00:48:24.016
- and all this other stuff,
- 00:48:24.016 --> 00:48:25.851
- wake up to the glories of the world around you.
- 00:48:25.851 --> 00:48:29.021
- When you're distracted by how bad things might get,
- 00:48:29.021 --> 00:48:31.623
- how dark things might get in a moment in culture,
- 00:48:31.623 --> 00:48:34.460
- walk outside, look at the clouds,
- 00:48:34.460 --> 00:48:35.995
- look at the sun and tell me that you should be worried.
- 00:48:35.995 --> 00:48:39.164
- This earth is going Mach 86
- 00:48:39.164 --> 00:48:41.567
- around this burning ball of fire in the sky.
- 00:48:41.567 --> 00:48:44.703
- We're sitting here,
- 00:48:44.703 --> 00:48:45.938
- hurdling around a ball of fire in the sky.
- 00:48:45.938 --> 00:48:49.241
- It's right there, it's too bright to look at.
- 00:48:49.241 --> 00:48:51.043
- You'll go blind if you look at it.
- 00:48:51.043 --> 00:48:52.344
- Don't look at it.
- 00:48:52.344 --> 00:48:53.746
- We're just right there, precariously balanced.
- 00:48:53.746 --> 00:48:55.881
- If we moved a little bit further away,
- 00:48:55.881 --> 00:48:57.483
- we all freeze and die.
- 00:48:57.483 --> 00:48:59.251
- If we move a little bit closer,
- 00:48:59.251 --> 00:49:00.486
- we all burn up and die.
- 00:49:00.486 --> 00:49:02.354
- God has us perfectly positioned.
- 00:49:02.354 --> 00:49:04.990
- And we're going 86 times faster than sound
- 00:49:04.990 --> 00:49:08.560
- around this thing.
- 00:49:08.994 --> 00:49:10.596
- We're in His hand.
- 00:49:10.596 --> 00:49:12.197
- Step outside and trust Him.
- 00:49:12.197 --> 00:49:13.766
- Look at the beauty around you,
- 00:49:13.766 --> 00:49:15.701
- the beauty of photosynthesis,
- 00:49:15.701 --> 00:49:17.069
- the beauty of the sky, and the water cycle,
- 00:49:17.069 --> 00:49:19.571
- and the clouds, and everything else, thunderstorms.
- 00:49:19.571 --> 00:49:21.940
- Wake up to this world,
- 00:49:21.940 --> 00:49:24.209
- and start to interact with God directly about it.
- 00:49:24.209 --> 00:49:26.645
- When you see an ant cross the sidewalk in front of you,
- 00:49:26.645 --> 00:49:29.648
- know that God told a story thousands of years long
- 00:49:29.648 --> 00:49:33.619
- behind that ant.
- 00:49:33.619 --> 00:49:35.521
- And all of it led to this moment,
- 00:49:35.521 --> 00:49:38.290
- where He's gonna put it in your frame
- 00:49:38.290 --> 00:49:40.159
- in this particular scene.
- 00:49:40.159 --> 00:49:43.362
- That squirrel, that bird,
- 00:49:43.362 --> 00:49:44.663
- this is all directly from His hand,
- 00:49:44.663 --> 00:49:46.632
- and directly part of His artistry.
- 00:49:46.632 --> 00:49:49.134
- And start to live in direct interaction
- 00:49:49.134 --> 00:49:51.870
- with your Father within His art.
- 00:49:51.870 --> 00:49:54.406
- So in "The Riot and the Dance,"
- 00:49:54.406 --> 00:49:55.674
- I want kids to run out the back door
- 00:49:55.674 --> 00:49:57.309
- and love their backyards,
- 00:49:57.309 --> 00:49:58.510
- and love the world God gave them,
- 00:49:58.510 --> 00:50:00.179
- and when they see a creature, to know it's a gift.
- 00:50:00.179 --> 00:50:03.649
- This is a hand-crafted work of art and engineering
- 00:50:03.649 --> 00:50:06.852
- from their Father, another gift from their Father,
- 00:50:06.852 --> 00:50:10.622
- and another gift from their Father who's constantly giving.
- 00:50:10.622 --> 00:50:14.259
- - Nate, this is awesome.
- 00:50:14.259 --> 00:50:15.828
- I can't wait for everybody to see "The Riot and the Dance,"
- 00:50:15.828 --> 00:50:18.263
- where you're gonna see all of this stuff
- 00:50:18.263 --> 00:50:20.599
- in high definition, in full color.
- 00:50:20.599 --> 00:50:23.702
- And you gotta make sure
- 00:50:23.702 --> 00:50:24.937
- that all of your kids are watching this.
- 00:50:24.937 --> 00:50:26.638
- Thanks so much for joining me today.
- 00:50:26.638 --> 00:50:28.607
- Nate's such a stellar example of a Christian creator
- 00:50:28.607 --> 00:50:31.110
- that is leading the charge in crafting high-quality,
- 00:50:31.110 --> 00:50:34.179
- God-glorifying art.
- 00:50:34.179 --> 00:50:36.215
- Man, we got a lot to unpack today
- 00:50:36.215 --> 00:50:37.749
- from today's amazing conversation,
- 00:50:37.749 --> 00:50:39.718
- so please join us after the break for today's "Takeaways."
- 00:50:39.718 --> 00:50:43.088
- (upbeat music)
- 00:50:43.088 --> 00:50:48.997
- (upbeat music)
- 00:50:48.997 --> 00:50:49.395
- (upbeat music)
- 00:50:49.762 --> 00:50:56.503
- Welcome back.
- 00:50:56.870 --> 00:50:57.937
- Thanks for joining us today
- 00:50:57.937 --> 00:50:59.072
- as we had fascinating conversations
- 00:50:59.072 --> 00:51:01.107
- about the power and presence of God
- 00:51:01.107 --> 00:51:03.543
- in mathematics and science, narrative and nature.
- 00:51:03.543 --> 00:51:07.780
- I don't know about you,
- 00:51:07.780 --> 00:51:09.015
- but I was blown away by these insights.
- 00:51:09.015 --> 00:51:11.050
- There's so much to unpack here,
- 00:51:11.050 --> 00:51:12.619
- but let's identify a few key takeaways.
- 00:51:12.619 --> 00:51:15.755
- One, use reason to understand revelation.
- 00:51:15.755 --> 00:51:19.959
- Math and science are limited in what they can teach us.
- 00:51:19.959 --> 00:51:23.463
- They aim to answer how the natural world works,
- 00:51:23.463 --> 00:51:26.833
- but they cannot explain the big-picture questions.
- 00:51:26.833 --> 00:51:30.103
- Why am I here on the earth in the first place?
- 00:51:30.103 --> 00:51:32.939
- What is right or wrong, good or bad?
- 00:51:32.939 --> 00:51:36.676
- What about beauty in the world?
- 00:51:36.676 --> 00:51:38.578
- Can science or math explain that?
- 00:51:38.578 --> 00:51:41.481
- Everything makes more sense
- 00:51:41.481 --> 00:51:43.216
- when God is part of the equation.
- 00:51:43.216 --> 00:51:46.119
- Two, evidence doesn't replace faith, it builds it.
- 00:51:46.119 --> 00:51:50.957
- As John pointed out, everyone has faith in something,
- 00:51:50.957 --> 00:51:54.327
- it's just a matter of what or who you put your faith in.
- 00:51:54.327 --> 00:51:58.631
- We don't have a faith lacking evidence of a creator.
- 00:51:58.631 --> 00:52:01.935
- Math and science show us there's design in the universe,
- 00:52:01.935 --> 00:52:06.005
- and that points to a designer.
- 00:52:06.005 --> 00:52:08.741
- Psalm 19: 1 says, "The heavens declare the glory of God.
- 00:52:08.741 --> 00:52:13.646
- The skies proclaim the works of His hands."
- 00:52:13.646 --> 00:52:17.417
- You don't have to throw your logic and reason out
- 00:52:17.417 --> 00:52:20.320
- to believe in God.
- 00:52:20.320 --> 00:52:21.454
- In fact, they point us to Him.
- 00:52:21.454 --> 00:52:24.357
- Three, God is the main character in the story.
- 00:52:25.258 --> 00:52:29.395
- We're all secondary characters in the great drama
- 00:52:29.395 --> 00:52:32.732
- of God saving and restoring humanity.
- 00:52:32.732 --> 00:52:36.369
- How cool is it that we get to be part
- 00:52:36.369 --> 00:52:38.838
- of the most exciting story ever told?
- 00:52:38.838 --> 00:52:41.975
- Our goal is not to be the center of the story,
- 00:52:41.975 --> 00:52:44.711
- but to point to the one who is
- 00:52:44.711 --> 00:52:47.013
- as we play our secondary roles well.
- 00:52:47.013 --> 00:52:50.617
- Four, nature is God's gift to us.
- 00:52:51.384 --> 00:52:55.221
- It's our playground to enjoy
- 00:52:55.221 --> 00:52:56.823
- and a great teacher to learn from.
- 00:52:56.823 --> 00:52:59.425
- The world is also God's revelation of Himself to us.
- 00:52:59.425 --> 00:53:04.130
- We're told in Romans 1:20
- 00:53:04.130 --> 00:53:06.599
- that His eternal power and divine nature are clear
- 00:53:06.599 --> 00:53:10.336
- through what He has made.
- 00:53:10.336 --> 00:53:12.405
- Nate Wilson reminded us the promise
- 00:53:12.405 --> 00:53:14.574
- of the resurrection is all over creation.
- 00:53:14.574 --> 00:53:17.644
- Spring follows winter.
- 00:53:17.644 --> 00:53:19.712
- The sun rises out of the darkness.
- 00:53:19.712 --> 00:53:22.181
- New life springs from seeds buried in the ground.
- 00:53:22.181 --> 00:53:25.752
- All of this reminds us of the beauty, poetry,
- 00:53:25.752 --> 00:53:29.389
- and generosity of our Creator.
- 00:53:29.389 --> 00:53:31.858
- That's all for this episode of "Takeaways."
- 00:53:32.725 --> 00:53:34.827
- Thanks for watching.
- 00:53:34.827 --> 00:53:35.928
- And if you've enjoyed this show,
- 00:53:35.928 --> 00:53:37.430
- don't forget to set your DVR to never miss an episode.
- 00:53:37.430 --> 00:53:41.100
- And of course, you can always catch up on past episodes
- 00:53:41.100 --> 00:53:44.103
- by searching for "Takeaways" on the TBN app.
- 00:53:44.103 --> 00:53:47.307
- We'll see you here next time for more great conversations.
- 00:53:47.307 --> 00:53:50.743
- (upbeat music)
- 00:53:50.743 --> 00:53:50.743
